Table of Contents
Arthritis Remedies for Dogs
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As our beloved canine friend begins to age, it is likely that at some point a certain degree of arthritis will set in and begin to slow our pet down a bit.' Arthritis affects the animal by causing inflammation and pain in the joints. Although all breeds and sizes of dogs are susceptible, it is the large and giant breeds who are most prone to the problem. The added weight due to their size puts additional pressure on the joints and results in more wear and tear. You may notice, as your pet gets older, that it is increasingly difficult for him or her to get up after sleeping, and might move more slowly or stiffly when walking.
There are a number of things that you can do at home for your pet to slow down the progression of the disease and help your dog to stay healthy and as pain free as possible.
The first solution is to incorporate substantial doses of powdered Vitamin C into the dog's daily meal. Vitamin C will help keep tissue healthy and protect against further joint deterioration. (Use a sodium ascorbate or another form of buffered vitamin C, as plain ascorbic acid may cause an upset stomach.)
Here is a daily dosage guide for adult dogs:
Small dogs 500mg - 1,000mg
Medium - Large dogs 1,000mg - 2,000mg
Giant dogs 2,000mg - 4,000mg
Start with the lowest recommended dosage and gradually increase it once or twice per year. If the dog is producing loose stools the dosage may be a bit high so cut back slightly and increase it gradually over time.
You can also try using Rhus Toxicodendron, which is a very effective homeopathic remedy and will help to manage pain and aching.
Lastly, you might try incorporating Home-Cooked Meals for your pet, as this will provide them with high-quality and chemical free food. Just be sure to avoid using any vegetables that are considered part of the "nightshade" family, such as tomatoes, potatoes, peppers and eggplant. These types of vegetables tend to aggravate an arthritic condition.
DISCLAIMER
* Our readers offer information and opinions on Earth Clinic, not as a substitute for professional veterinary prevention, diagnosis, or treatment. Please consult with your veterinarian before taking any home remedies or supplements or following any treatment suggested by anyone on this site. Only your Veterinarian can provide you with advice on what is safe and effective for your pet's unique needs or diagnose your pet's particular medical history.
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1 QUESTION
07/23/2009: Denise from Pittsburgh, PA writes: "I have a 9 1/2 year old coonhound mix with arthritis in her front leg(s??). With our vet's recommendation we started her on the Rx med for arthritis. This seemed to take the edge off but not much more than that. Recently I switched from that Rx to a liquid chondroiton/glucosamine msm. Although its been only a week, it doesnt seem to be doing much yet, and maybe we havent given it enough time. I would be interested in trying the ACV rememdy if someone could tell me the dosage for a 9 1/2 year old dog who is approx. 82 lbs."
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[QUESTION] 01/24/2008: JN from Washington, DC writes: "Please Post this Question on the site. I have been reading about ACV remedies for Dogs. I have a 6 yr old Lab who might be suffering from Arthritis (took her to 3 Vets with X-Rays that don't show anything but she limps each time she gets up) and need to know what is the dosage and how to administer it? Any suggestions as I am desparate to make her feel better as I have stopped her from running or playing with other dogs and she loves to run!!! I strongly believe in natural cures, please help. Thanks"
07/01/2008: Richard from Seal Beach, CA replies: "Re Arthritis remedies: Our 11-year old, 85-pound Golden Retriever has severe spinal arthritis. We have had her on a glucosamne/chondroitin supplement, but she is no longer responding to it. She does not go on walks and lays still all day, apparently because she is in pain.
Can we combine the supplement with apple cider vinegar (ACV)? If so, how much ACV do we give her and how do we administer it? Or should we use ACV only? If we do, what is the dosage? Thank you!"
EC: We are of the opinion that TTouch techniques work the best for conditions like severe arthritis in dogs. Here are our notes on the subject...
07/08/2008: Yolanda from Atlanta, GA, USA replies: "SPECIAL INFORMATION FOR JN,WASHINGTON, D.C. 1/28/08:IF NO OTHER INDICATION THAT DOG HAS ARTHRITIS, IT COULD VERY WELL BE A MISALIGNED JOINT (HIP, SPINE, ETC.). LOOK FOR A CHIROPRACTOR WHO TREATS DOGS AND/OR VET WHO USES ACUPUNCTURE. MY DACHSIE WAS DOWN IN BACK HIPS AND VET SAID TO LOCK HER IN A CRATE 2 WEEKS! INSANE! I TOOK HER TO MY CHIROPRACTOR, SHE FOUND A PROBLEM IN THE LOW BACK AND TREATED IT. MY DOG JUMPED UP AND RAN IN CIRCLES, TOOK OFF RUNNING DOWN THE 40 FOOT HALLWAY AND BACK, SQUATTED AND PEED. NO PAIN AND SHE WAS ALL PERFECT AGAIN. SHE NEVER HAD THE PROBLEM EVER AGAIN! I HAVE PERSONALLY HAD MIRACLE STORIES SIMILAR TO THAT WITH ACUPUNCTURE."
06/10/2009: Sunsong from Mission, BC Canada replies: "I would like to say that i also had great success with chiropractic treatment for a large Siamese cat that i was looking after for some friends. The chiropracter I found had worked with many animals including horses. His prices were reasonable as well.
The overweight aggressive cat would bite, squirm and generally be miserable anytime we would want to pick him up. I get along with all animals, so this was quite unusual for me! I sensed he was hurting/uncomfortable, so even though my family thought i was crazy, i took the hurting cat to the chiropracter, and voila....after only one treatment, i could pick him up and he purred and looked happy. We took him for an extra 2 treatments after that. It was funny....the cat knew it was good for him and happily laid on the chiropracters bench waiting for his gentle treatment. Our chiropracter used the gentle retractor gun tool to align his back. I think we had a particularly good chiropracter. Needless to say, find one who has worked with animals!!!
I'm guessing, but i think the cat must have jumped off a high ledge at one point,...that may have been what twisted his back out of alignment. By the way, his general anxiety decreased quite a bit after the treatment as well. "
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[YEA] Wendy from Canada writes: "My Chocolate Lab Sam has arthritis and was recently attacked by a dog. I had started him on ACV before but forgot sometimes. He has been on it faithfully for the past 3 weeks now and is getting better and better. He is on a raw diet and I just mix it in. For those dog owners who have dogs with failing health I recommend you look at the BARF diet. I wouldn't have believed that a dog who I was told would be dead in 3 months from liver problems would completely turn around due to diet and supplements(including ACV). We are what we eat and so are our pets. It has been 11 months and Sammy is doing great!"
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[YEA] Sandi from Rehoboth MA writes: "I personally use it several times day, it works for different problems. All the dogs (7) are on it, from a disabled dachsie to three young healthy dachsies. It helps with arthritis, ear problems, wounds, itching. Adjust ph levels, prevents uti's. Gives them a healthy skin and also cleans out the bodies, like it does for humans"
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2 YEA
[YEA] 04/28/2009: ArtsyWench from Las Vegas, NV writes: "I have a 9 year old, 88lb, female Akita. She stopped eating, was listless and had trouble getting up. Since she had cancer a couple of years back, we rushed her to the vet fearing the worst. $1700 in vet bills later, nothing was found (bloodwork, catscan, xrays, stool samples, urine samples, the works). So the doctor thought maybe she had a case of cold weather joint pain or arthritis. I wasn't willing to start her on medication until I did some research. A friend told me her dog had the same symptoms and her holistics vet gave her Blackstrap Molasses, (and this site backed it up) so I tried it and within 2 doses (24 hours) she was up and around... now only 2 weeks later, she's pulling me up hills on our walks.
I give her a tbsp in the morning and another tbsp at night... and if I miss a dose, I can tell. So, I don't know if it's doggie crack or what, but she is very close to being back to her young self."
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[YEA] 09/12/2008: Amelia from Hattiesburg, Ms writes: "I read the email about the dogs being given the Blackstrap Molasses and how they are vibrant and doing fine, so I decided to give my pomeranian who is suffering from arthritis some BSM on some cooked white rice. Well I'm glad I did and I am giving it to him and my other dogs over white rice every 2 days and boy do they have energy. My Pom has been jumping like he use to jump before the arthritis pain. I have a miniture chihuahua and 2 American Stafford Shireterriers and they all seem more vibrant and happy. I myself take BSM and it has worked wonders for me. My anemia is over, my tiredness is gone, I feel so much better since reading this BSM Info on this site. Thank you guys so much and may God forever Bless each of you that shared."
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CHLOROPHYLL, OLIVE OIL, BROCCOLI
[YEA] 03/07/2009: Lois from NYC, NY writes: "i used clorophyl, a green juice and evoo, 1 teaspoon of each to start in water. then gradually twice a day. my dogs had arthritis and this helped so much. i also give them steamed broccoli a few small bunches a day. theyre doing great. i hope this helps someone."
EC: EVOO = Extra Virgin Olive Oil
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1 YEA
[YEA] 04/05/2007: Beverly from COLORADO SPRINGS, CO writes: "By January of 2006, my nine years old Shar Pei senior dog, suffered from severe arthritis with bad hips and almost non existent front elbows. The vets suggested I put him to sleep for he needed both front and rear wheels to stay mobile. Being an individual that doesn't take "impossible" for an answer I did my own research. I got on the wonderful library highway of the web, and found this Earth Clinic website with natural remedies and cures. After only two weeks, with one tablespoon per 50 pounds of organic extra virgin coconut oil, Taz was up and running like a puppy on all four legs. After putting one tablespoon of the organic virgin coconut oil in the dog's food daily, Taz was better. It has been over a year, and he's still truckin'. He's not as spunky as back then, but who of us are as we age? More importantly, he is still fully mobile and has no handicap signs."
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EXERCISE, TURMERIC, GLUCOSAMINE, MSM
[YEA] 10/03/2008: Deirdre from Atlanta, GA writes: "Just wanted to report that I am having great results on my 14+ year old german shephard mix who has arthritis (especially in the hips). I think that one of the most helpful and important things I'm doing is exercising him without fail every day. I take him on walks each day, usually about 3.5 miles total. Considering his age, he's in remarkably good shape and, except on steep hills, keeps up with our other 2 young dogs. We used to walk by a neighbor's golden retriever who was let outside in the front yard several times a day to do her thing. She hobbled around in obvious pain, barely able to walk. I never once saw the owners taking their sweet dog out for a walk. She was only about 10 years old when they put her to sleep. Just my opinion, but I think early deaths happen with some frequency to yard-only dogs. Exercise keeps those joints lubricated!
Supplements: I also recently started adding turmeric, msm and glucosamine to Max's food. Dosages: 1/4 teaspoon of powdered turmeric in his food in the morning, diluted with chicken broth. At night I crush a 1000 mg tablet of MSM and give him half of it (500 mg), plus a full capsule of glucosamine blend from Trader Joe's (glucosamine sulfate 750mg and glucosamine HCI 750 mg). My vet mentioned that she likes the combo of MSM and glucosamine for dogs with arthritis, which is why I started him on that a few weeks ago. The turmeric has helped heal up a benign cyst that had burst through the skin on his front paw. Very glad one of EC's readers reported a cure for dog cysts recently -- thanks! At any rate, Max seems to be doing better on the supplements -- walking faster, wrestling with the other dogs, less confusion at night when the lights go off. Yea, yea, yea."
08/14/2009: Scherri from Parker, Co, USA replies: "My 5-year-old Welsh Corgi has had a limp due to a hip problem. He loves to play fetch and would play until he was tired, but then he would limp much worse with exercise. I started him on Turmeric and Flax Seed Oil and he immediately started to put weight on his leg and walk normally. I have tried Glucosamine and pain pills (from the vet) and this has been the best (and fastest acting) "cure" for my little guy. Now I see him "smiling" more when he is out playing because he is not limping around afterward. Thanks to Earth Clinic."
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[YEA] 12/03/2007: Raquelle Barczewski from Auckland, New Zealand writes: "I have found flax seed oil excellent for cats and dogs if they do not mind some in there food. It does not have much flavour and has an endless list of properties. Excellent for aging animals as is is good for skin, fur, brain and especially arthritis sufferers...if animals take this when young they would probably avoid later life conditions. Once I lived with a dog riddled with arthritis and looked crippled when walking...the owner agreed I could give her this oil and she actually gain mobility back to a huge degree and had a lot better quality to life before passing. Oh also great for humans too!"
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[YEA] 05/04/2007: H Sparrow from Adelaide, Autstralia writes: "I just began giving my dog an omega 3 and 6 oil to go along with his glucosamine HCL, and sashas blend. The oil is said to be dirived from cold pressed fish and flax seed oil it is a well known remedy for skin and joint problems due to the EPA's DHA's and ALA's. But after having a quick look over this site's list of poisonous and toxic plants to cats and dogs I noticed that flax is listed on it with a discription that reads a wildflower and herb whose seed pods contain poisons. Now as you can imagime this has got me quite worried and confused as to the integrity of these flax oil, and omega 3 oil products that are made especially for pets. If anyone knows a bit more about it or can comment on it it would be a great help to me and my dog."
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1 YEA
[YEA] 05/12/2007: Leslie from Peterborough, England writes: "My 11 year old Golden Retriever dog and I have been taking Glucosamin with or without Chondritin for several years now and the difference has been great, particularly in the dog. She has serious problems with her rerg joints, but she is much more mobile whilst taking the tablets with her morning food. ACV has been reccomended by a friend at work, so I am about to start with the ACV (for me, not the dog) so I am hoping that what I have read on your site will work for me also. Very informative site. Thanks"
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1 YEA
[YEA] 01/15/2008: Michael from Concord, Ohio writes: "I have a five yr. old Jack Russell. He has had surgery on one of his rear legs years ago due to defect in his knee joint. Over the years the best thing other than drugs for the vet to stop the pain and o comfort him was Heat. We moved from Cold Ohio to Naples, Fl. for a few years and he was like a pup again. Laying in the sun and that really helped him a lot. Now due to work we have had to move back to Ohio and the winter is really starting to take it tole on him. In stead of keeping him on meds from the vet we place a heating pad in his bed during the day and really helps him. Believe me, three or four hour of that and he is good to go. Other home made cures other than a good diet just are not going to made much difference. You got a just try the heating pad. It's cheap and it works."
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[YEA] 07/26/2006: Lone from Denmark writes: "My dog's arthritis pains have been significantly reduced with Rhus toxicodendron."
12/31/2008: Smadar from Miami, USA replies: "My 10 year old Lab was just diagnosed with arthritis and possible hip or back issues. The vet is not sure if its the back or the hip or both. Are there any recommendations for remedies and how much and how often would I administer the Rhus Tox remedy? Thanks!"
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[YEA] 12/01/2007: Pegiot from Leavenworth, KS writes: "Our 11 year old dog was really slow getting up, and' stopped running. A friend made some dog biscuits, adding a drop of hyalauronic acid to each biscuit. After 3 days our dog was running around like a puppy again."
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[YEA] 10/22/2008: Brent from Phoenix, Az, USA writes: "Arthritis Prevention for Dogs.
I give my 14 yr old german shepperd a "full" body massage every day - and I believe that probably has a lot to do with the fact that he shows no noticeable signs of Arthritis. I massage him for about 2-3 minutes every night at bedtime - covering every area of his body. His muscles will twitch as tension is relieved and he will moan as it relieves tension throughout his body. I also make sure I get his neck, head and muzzle area. I'm not a vet, but it seems obvious that daily massages will greatly improve the quality of a dog's life. I am sure that the massaging also keeps blood flowing deeply through the joints - preventing the buildup of substances in the joints that cause inflamation.
I also feed my dog "Ezekial 4.9 Bread" and sprouted wheat bread. I would like to see what vets think about that."
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04/26/2009: Linda from Brooklyn, New York writes: "I take MSM when I remember to take it for healthy hair growth. My little 9 year old terrier has developed a limp when she gets up from sleep so I'm giving her a little every day to see how it helps her. She had surgery once for a benign lump which her Vet said would reoccur-no lump in a year since on ESSIAC! She has been on MSM for about three days now so I'll see in a few weeks-no more surgery for my beautiful girl."
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Thamas from East Coast Australia, NSW writes: "Has anyone tried mms for dogs? If so how much did they give and what were the results?"
[YEA] Otis from New Paltz, Ny, Usa replies: "Hi Thamas, RE: msm for dogs. My German Shorthaired Pointer/Lab mix suffered a torn cruciate ligament in his left knee about 3 years ago. After two operations the joint was badly damaged and the prognosis for mobility fair at best. I've been using msm with him since that time, together with a mostly raw diet, and his recovery has been remarkable. He is now 10 years old, walks/jumps/plays with only a very slight limp, can easily run 10 miles, and shows only mild signs of arthritis on cold mornings. He is clear, sharp and looks great. I would highly recommend using msm with any dog or other animal.His basic daily mix is: 1/4 tsp. msm, 1/4 tsp. glucosamine, 1 tbsp. spirulina or chlorella - all dissolved in 1/4 cup olive oil. I then mix in his usual raw food (google 'The BARF Diet'). Good luck! Your dog deserves it!"
03/05/2008: Joyce from Joelton, Tn replies: "Hi Thomas, Was your question about giving M&M's, MMS, or MSM (methylsulfonealmethane) to your dog? If MSM is yes, it is safe for horses and dogs, and probably for most other animals. Dosage would depend on size of dog, but my recommendation would l/2 tsp for little dogs and progressing upward through medium sized dogs and probably. Probably twice that dosage wouldn't hurt them. After reading that the first doctor that I know of who borrowed from the race horse owners and started treating humans with it, had been taking the race horse dose (close to 1oz) for years to see if had any unwanted side effects from it, and no unwanted side effects to date; but he at the age of 75 (when this was written) still had a thick head of black hair, and still teaching in a medical school - well, not being one to argue with success- I started at the same dosage. I also have not had any unwanted side effects, but still have the same gray hair with the appearance of scattered black hairs throughout.
"
09/13/2009: Janice from Coloma, Mi replies: "Otis, I was wondering if you feed your dog bones? I started my dog on the raw meat diet and she loves the bones but I'm getting both pro and con feedback from others who feed raw and I'm not sure what to do."
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1 YEA
[YEA] 08/02/2009: June from Kc, Ks writes: "Raw goat's milk for old arthritic cats and dogs
This past month my 15-year-old male cat (who is largely blind due to cataracts and has very bad back trouble after being run over by cars twice) has begun acting better. He trots around the yard, has an increased appetite, has put on weight and overall has more energy. It even seemed like he could see better. We were unsure of the cause. I thought it could be the milder summer weather or the h2o2 I put in his water or just luck. But now I think I know the answer to the riddle of his improved health: raw goats milk.
I got some more goats milk this morning and was talking to my friend about her own cats and dogs. She said they inherited a 13-year-old dog who had been cruelly penned up and could barely walk. The dog cried whenever she tried to straighten up. She was given goat's milk, just like all the other animals on the farm, and now the dog runs around "like she owns the place."
That was the light bulb moment for me. My cat loves that milk and when we gave it to him he bugged us all day every day for doses of the milk. We thought it was cute, but of course didn't realize it was doing him so much good.
What's really funny is he usually scrams whenever people visit. But he sat right by my friend as we chatted. I think he could smell the goat's milk!
I grew up on a farm and milked the goats every day before school and at night. My mom always said goat's milk was the best for you."
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1 QUESTION
02/28/2009: Pamela from Barrie, Ontario writes: "I have a 9 year old mix (Aussie, Lb & Retriever) her hips have slowly been deteriorating over the years and most recently after a walk, was not able to get up at all. The vet has put her on Metacam, an anti-inflammatory as well as Glucosamine for her joints and we discovered that she has a thyroid problem which has caused her to be 40 lbs over weight. We now have her on an extreme diet but she's still not able to get up and walk. She weighs in at 120 lbs and we have to assist her up 2 stairs to get outside. She barely goes to the bathroom and even them she often falls back into her "waste".
Any suggestions??? The vet says once she looses weight, she will be able to move more but is there anything else I can do in the meantime to help her walk better?"
03/01/2009: Yolanda from Snowflake, Arizona replies: "I have a 13 year old female lab retriever. She is my baby but as she has been getting older she is slowing down too. I have found that if you give her garlic in her food or tabs that helps with the pain. I also researched and started adding more alkaline water to her diet. My dog sleeps on a magnetic pad for pets. I know we want Dr's to fix everything but I have found just as I age and get up with pains so does she. Try that and see what happens. I also fix a natural juice for her and me in the mornings before our walks that helps.
P.S. glucosamine with msm is good too on food daily. I try the natural stuff first.
Hope is helps."
03/04/2009: Sandy from Dallas, TX replies: "What worked for my dog with arthritis was colloidal silver added to her drinking water. She is 13 years old and was having trouble getting up after having been lying down. The silver seemed to work for her and she does not having any problem getting up now. You might want to try tumeric as I have been adding it to her food, but I did not use that for her arthritis. She has COPD and the tumeric seems to help her cough and I also add ACV. The thing that I noticed that help her cough was a little honey in her food. If I don't add honey, she coughs more."
07/12/2009: V from Edmonton , Canada replies: "I have an 11 year old german shepherd Lab x (cleksey, 70 lbs) who, 3 years ago could barley walk, sit or stand for any length of time. she was on so much pain, the vet pescribed medicam, but that was hard on her stomach, and would make her dozey. One day we were at Petsmart and one of the trianers recomended glucosamne/chondroitin and shark cartelage. at that time we had already had her on the glucosamne/chondroitin pill 500 mg daily for about 3 months, with only slight improvements. we added 500mg/day of shark cartelage and within days we started seeing huge improvements. within 6 months our chelsey,who could barley walk was running around like a pup again. her pain was gone, she coud even go up and down stairs! for the last 3 years she has been on the glucosamne/chondroitin and shark cartelage suppliments, and is doing great. I recomend this remedy to anyone who has a dog suffreing from arthritus... oh, and it works for people too."
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[QUESTION] 02/16/2009: Rocky from Saskatoon, SK, CANADA writes: "We own a Bassett Hound. Our vet says that he has arthritis, other vets say that its just the breed of the dog, apparently they are prone to bad joints. Anyone have any suggestions with regards to treatment."
03/02/2009: Mark from Wahiawa, Hawaii replies: "I haven't tried this remedy but I have read that people are having good results using hyaluronic acid liquid formulas and their pets are doing much better becoming more active and livelier."
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3 YEA
[YEA] 08/23/2008: Cindy from Wichita, USA writes: "I always keep high potency Apis Mellifica homeopathic remedy on hand. My daughter is allergic to bee stings.
Natural remedies for animals seem to fly in the face of those who claim they only work as placebos.
Shake some unprocessed sea salt into the pooch's water. Domestic animals are notoriously salt deficient. If you know of someone who has a pet with arthritis, you can see the benefits of the watercure immediately. Just shake some sea salt in their water dish. I don't know if it's the salt or if it is the fact that they seem to drink more water if it has a pinch of salt in it, but it works. The "placebo effect" claims so often used against natural remedies won't hold up against a dog that is cured of arthritis or a child cured of asthma."
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[YEA] 04/24/2007: Bob from Moscow , Pa. writes: "If you check our pet testimonials On our watercure2.org site and read the home page story of how this was discovered, you will see that curing pet arthritis is not even a challenge. Just add unprocessed sea salt to its food and water and within 24 hours a pet will stand up and walk with a limp even though previously it had been unable to stand. Best of all it is free. Bob Butts"
[YEA] 08/17/2008: Cindy from Wichita, Kansas replies: "I used the water cure for my Lhasa Apso after I had used it on myself with such amazing results. My "puppy" was 16 years old and could barely move around. I simply put a little salt in her water and she immediately started drinking more water. Her water consumption had slowed way down when she started getting old.
Unfortunately, she was already well into kidney failure but she was quite perky and able to jump up on the couch and run up and down the stairs as she hadn't in quite a while. It was very strange. She was perky and happy up to the very end though she was extremely emaciated by then. I was very comforted to have made her last days so happy and active. I miss her very much."
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12/28/2008: Bonnie from Colts Neck, NJ writes: "Shakey dog legs: My 11 year old Jack Russell terrier is in good health walking at least a mile a day and running in a big yard. Over the past year he has developed a shakiness in his rear legs-like a nervous tremor. He is not in pain but I was hoping someone might have a supplement to suggest-He gets a dab of coconut oil daily and I have started ACV drops on his back and water. I was feeding antioxidant vitamins too. Any suggestions would be most helpful. Thanks!"
EC: Our dog Max has had this issue for the past few years -- he's turning 15 in March! T-Touch (aka Tellington TTouch) has been very effective at stopping the tremors for a day or two. More about T-Touch here: http://www.ttouch.com/aboutLinda.shtml
Acupuncture has been another helpful technique for this condition, but it's quite expensive.
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01/04/2009: Gabbie from Austin, TX writes: "My 11 yr old lab/chow mix has arthritis in his back. Thanks to your helpful posts we're starting a treatment of 10 drops traumeel in 1 oz of Goji juice. He loves Goji juice and it's high in vitamin C and gives us the perfect delivery system for the traumeel. Will research a couple of other items listed and post again if they help."
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