Does anyone have guidance for taking nattokinase for cholesterol and high lipo a protein, while also taking NP for Hashimotos?
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Q&A
There was no mention of diet in the trial which was testing, high dose and lower dose nattokinase in addition to low dose aspirin and vitamin K2M7.
Art
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Q&A
I also take every other day: Vit A, 3000 mg ( it is low based on the blood test), Daily super E - complete tocotrienol complex (wellness resources), full spectrum vitamin K2 by innovix labs, vit D 10,000IU (fish sourced) and Boron 3mg. Vit A is a must for proper Vit D utilisation. I also take Vit A 25,000 IU once a week.
I get early am full body sun exposure. 20 min is enough. And maybe 5min mid-day. Luckily I live in Florida. Without Sun exposure fighting many health related imbalances is impossible.
Q&A
I used 400 mcg of K2M7 per day in the form of two soft gels that are 200 mcg each as I discussed here with my cholesterol/triglyceride results :
https://www.earthclinic.com/cures/nattokinase-benefits-high-cholesterol-treatment.html
I should also mention that in the high dose nattokinase study, they only used 180 mcg of K2M7 and while I used 10, 000 FU of nattokinase per day, the study used 10, 800 FU per day. I also feel that based on a previous study that my daily use of 1200 mg of grape seed proanthocyanidin extract (GSPE) was a significant contributing factor for why my results exceeded the high dose nattokinase study results.
Good luck to you and please come back and update us when you can.
Art
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I've only used the straight nattokinase as used in the study because I was trying to replicate the study results and I was able to do that using essentially what they used in the study, which included vitamin K2M7.
I have used some of the enzymes that you listed to improve digestive issues, but not with nattokinase, so I have no basis to determine if they would be additive to the nattokinase for cholesterol reduction.
I'm sorry I can't be more informative on your question.
Art
Q&A
The highest dose human study I have seen was the 10, 800 FU study that I wrote about and it showed a significant reduction in LDL cholesterol, VLDL cholesterol, triglycerides and atherosclerosis and an increase in HDL cholesterol over a 12 month study.
There is no data that I am aware of showing what you describe in humans, because there are no human/nattokinase studies higher than 10, 800 FU. In the same study, it was shown that a dose of 3, 600 FU had no significant effect on the studied parameters.
Art
Nattokinase Lab Results
Nattokinase Lab Results
My preference for nattokinase is this product from Vitacost because the capsules are fairly small and I can swallow all five at once :
https://www.vitacost.com/vitacost-mega-nattokinase
I don't know that they are any better than other brands, but I know they work.
Art
Nattokinase Lab Results
Nattokinase Lab Results
Nattokinase Lab Results
Thank you for the feedback and update on your use of high dose nattokinase!
That is a huge drop in triglycerides and VLDL at greater than 56% and that is comparable to what I saw as well as the increased HDL cholesterol! I would have expected a significant LDL decline, but then again, I was taking other things that were adjunctive to the nattokinase. Not bad for just about 7 months in! The study went for 12 months, so you are well on your way to to that target area.
Art
Nattokinase Lab Results
★★★★★
I just wanted to share my lab results after 6 months on high-dose nattokinase (10,000 daily), which I started in November 2023. I did not take the additional supplements mentioned in Art's article; K2M7 or grape seed proanthocyanidin extract. Thank you so much, Art, for posting your detailed research on Earth Clinic. I would never have tried this otherwise.
| Date | Total Cholesterol | Triglycerides | HDL | VLDL | LDL Chol Cal | T. chol/HDL ratio |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 11/20/23 | 260 | 235 | 57 | 43 | 160 | 4.6 |
| 6/8/24 | 248 | 102 | 66 | 18 | 164 | 3.8 |
| Change | -4.62% | -56.60% | 15.79% | -58.14% | 2.50% | -17.39% |
★★★★★
Given the proven benefits that nattokinase has shown in terms of reversing the trend of atherosclerosis in humans, its value needs to be weighed in comparison to Eliquis. Eliquis is an anticoagulant that has bleeding as a common side effect as discussed here :
https://www.drugs.com/eliquis.html#side-effects
Nattokinase can also thin the blood and dissolve blood clots as discussed here :
Here is a relevant quote :
' Nattokinase (NK), a potent blood-clot dissolving protein used for the treatment of cardiovascular diseases, is produced by the bacterium Bacillus subtilis during the fermentation of soybeans to produce Natto. NK has been extensively studied in Japan, Korea, and China. Recently, the fibrinolytic (anti-clotting) capacity of NK has been recognized by Western medicine. The National Science Foundation in the United States has investigated and evaluated the safety of NK. '
If your doctor is willing, he/she may temporarily allow you to stop Eliquis to test nattokinase or reduce your dose of Eliquis so you can use nattokinase simultaneously. The reason I am mentioning nattokinase to you is because I feel it is actually stopping CVD at its most common source, atherosclerosis. Whereas, Eliquis is mainly treating symptoms such as clotting and people can still have stroke while taking Eliquis as discussed in the following human study :
https://j-stroke.org/upload/pdf/jos-2021-02355.pdf
Here is a relevant study quote :
' A total of 651 patients (mean age, 72.5±8.7 years) received apixaban for a mean duration of 82.7±37.4 weeks. Fifty-three bleeding events occurred in 39 patients (6.0%), and 10 (1.5%) experienced major bleeding. Seventeen patients (2.6%) had major events (stroke, n=15, 2.3%; all ischemic), systemic embolism (n=1, 0.2%), and death (n=3, 0.5%). MRI data showed no significant association between white matter ischemic changes and microbleeds, and major events or bleeding. Patients with cerebral atherosclerotic lesions had a higher rate of major events than those without (4.6% [n=10/219] vs. 1.7% [n=7/409], P=0.0357), which partly explains the increased prevalence of major outcomes in this group versus patients without stroke (0.7%, P=0.0002).'
See if you can find data suggesting that Eliquis can change the trend of atherosclerosis, which is usually the underlying problem. To give you an idea of what I am talking about, look at this study using just grape seed proanthocyanidin (GSPE) :
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4554789/
Here is a relevant study quote :
' As anticipated, after treatment, GSPE resulted in significant reduction in MMCIMT progression (4.2% decrease after six months, 4.9% decrease after 12 months and 5.8% decrease after 24 months) and plaque score (10.9% decrease after six months, 24.1% decrease after 12 months and 33.1% decrease after 24 months) for the primary outcome, while MMCIMT and plaque score were stable and even increased with the time going on in control group. The number of plaques and unstable plaques also decreased after treatment of GSPE. Furthermore, the carotid plaque can disappear after treatment with GSPE. The incidence rate for transitory ischemic attack (TIA), arterial revascularization procedure, and hospital readmission for unstable angina in GSPE group were statistically significant lower (P = 0.02, 0.08, 0.002, respectively) compared with the control group. '
Here is a graph that gives a great visual representation of what this relatively low dose of GSPE did in this study to significantly alter the atherosclerotic trend from upward to downward :
If Eliquis could produce these same effects as GSPE while acting as an anticoagulant, that would be useful, but I can't find any data that shows that it does. If you can find such data, please share it with me. This is a major reason why I use GSPE myself. It is also worth mentioning that while GSPE can have a significant effect on on carotid plaque and plaque score, its effects on cholesterol levels are minimal.
Doctors will tell you that statins can help atherosclerosis, but statins mainly slow progression of atherosclerosis. Statins only reduce the chance of having a heart attack by 25% to 35% as discussed in this Harvard article :
Here is a relevant quote from the article :
' Cholesterol-lowering statins can reduce the odds of having a heart attack by about 25% to 35%, especially in people at high risk for these common, life-threatening events. '
That means that 65% to 75% of people taking statins still have the potential for a heart attack.
I believe that cholesterol is a poor marker for atherosclerosis because many people with good cholesterol levels still have heart attacks as discussed here :
Here is a relevant article quote :
' Optimal cholesterol levels don't always translate to perfect heart health, based on a recent study that found half of healthy patients with normal cholesterol levels have dangerous plaque build-up in their arteries. '
Altering the atherosclerosis trend from upward to downward makes sense since atherosclerosis is the dominant cause of cardiovascular disease which includes strokes and heart attacks among others. Cholesterol does not seem to be a great marker for atherosclerosis, but atherosclerosis is a very good marker for CVD.
Art
Lecithin
Lecithin
★★★★★
The only study done for lecithin and cholesterol that I am aware of used soy lecithin and that is what I have used and seen work. If the lecithin in water is not your cup of tea, I suggest you consider this as a very good alternative :
https://www.earthclinic.com/cures/high-dose-nattokinase-for-atherosclerosis.html
And also this :
https://www.earthclinic.com/cures/nattokinase-benefits-high-cholesterol-treatment.html
These should not only lower cholesterol, but significantly improve atherosclerosis, which is actually what doctor would like to do.
Art
Lecithin
Where to Buy
If you go to their website :
https://www.xtend-life.com/blogs/supplement-ingredients/nattokinase
apparently they are not the same. They claim that their product contains enzymes that have similar effects to Nattokinase, but they offer no human testing to confirm or support their claims. Here is a quote from their site :
' Nattozimes® is specifically formulated to be a more effective alternative to nattokinase. It's a protease system with the same activity as nattokinase in the laboratory, known scientifically as its in vitro activity. '
This statement makes no mention of any type of heads up study utilizing Nattozimes and Nattokinase in humans to support their idea that Nattozimes are superior to Nattokinase. All they have is a report of how they compare in a test tube. Test tube results are not the same as actual results in humans.
I will stick with nattokinase since it does have several studies to support its effectiveness in humans.
Art
Where to Buy
I bought a bottle of nattozimes (made by Swanson) thinking it was the same as nattokinase last month. The strength is 195mg (6750 FU). I decided to go ahead and try them out. Not noticing much yet, I did notice the milia around my eyes have gone away. I will then probably next time get the real nattokinase that you suggested in the highest strength. Hoping for more mental clarity, heart, blood clots, circulation, bone health, eye health, liver, etc. It says it has the same enzimes as natto. Anyone tried this brand? Thanks
Q&A
Thank you for adding your questions at the end to make it easier for me to reply. Many time I miss questions when they are mixed into the total message.
To your first question I try to take my full NK dose when I wake up on an empty stomach. EC posted a reply on that topic that you may want to read because some manufacturers recommend taking their NK with food and some recommend without food. The one I use recommends taking on an empty stomach with no mention of divided dosing. The study did not mention anything about divided doses and I would think that if they had used divided doses, they would definitely have mentioned such a relevant fact.
Regarding your second question, I wait at least an hour after taking NK before taking in any food. This is just my general practice, but of course there will be exceptions such as if I am going out to breakfast with friends, then it could be less than hour after taking NK. I don't want my life to revolve around pill taking.
To your third question, I haven't seen any studies discussing how long to take NK. Generally all that is discussed is the length of the study period. My main purpose for taking NK is to change the trend of atherosclerosis from up to down. I consider cholesterol to be a poor marker for atherosclerosis, but at the same time I know that my insurance is not going to pay to have my atherosclerosis tested. They will only pay for cholesterol testing. I think I will take NK for two years unless my cholesterol drops too low in which case I may take a 6 month vacation or reduce my dose to 8, 000 FU or 6, 000 FU. I believe those doses are likely to reduce cholesterol and atherosclerosis albeit at a lesser rate than the study dosage. My decision will depend on my future results, but I have given it some thought already. I plan to continue taking the grape seed proanthocyanidin extract (GSPE) and vitamin K2M7 indefinitely.
To your last question, I enjoy eating and I pretty much eat what I like, including plenty of eggs and fats (not keto) and hope to be able to continue to do so, which would help explain why my cholesterol was as high as it was and with that, I'm sure my atherosclerosis has plenty of room for improvement too!
Art
Q&A
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I'm still under educated when it comes to cholesterol and bringing my numbers down. My numbers are not bad but I could bring my LDL's down. I just do not want to go on synthetics and my doctor is pushing it on me. I told him I would bring my numbers down. He told me to stop eating eggs and coconut based foods. For about 5 years I have always tried to reason with him about my coconut intake. He is old school and unfortunately I can not just go out and get a new doctor with my insurance plan.
Here are my numbers and I'm well aware you are not allowed to diagnose but I do have questions in regards to NK and how to take it properly. I did order the Arthur Andrew Supplement and for the last week have been taking 3 capsules about an hour after taking my thyroid prescription.
- HDL: 97
- LDL: 112
- VLDL: 8
- TRIGLYCERIDES: 47
- TOTAL CHOLESTEROL : 242
I'm curious how one should take the supplements. Roughly 3 equal the amount needed for NK to work, so does one take these all at once, or can it be divided throughout the day?
It also seems taking high doses all at once can upset the intestines, which is not fun. I'm also wondering, when it suggests taking on an empty stomach, how long one needs to wait to eat.
Since my cholesterol is high, it has affected my TSH (5.82) and its out of range and so is my Glucose levels (103).
My Endo upped my Armour Thyroid from 30mg to 45mg 3 times a week to try and normalize it.
I need to take my Armour Thyroid on an empty stomach and wait an hour before consuming foods.
My confusion really is, since I cant take NK with other supplements/prescriptions, and need to take on an empty stomach, I need to go about 2 hours after waking to not eat?? It's already overkill waiting an hour.
My other question is, how long does one take NK for? Do you stop taking high doses once your numbers go down, or stop taking for a period of time or is this like taking medication that you need to take them every day to maintain?
Armour Thyroid is the only prescription medication I am on.
I do take an array of other supplements including a high quality fish oil.
I do have one more question and below, I will recap them so they don't get lost in my message post.
Thank You!
- If you are taking 3 NK supplements to equal about 10,000 FU, do you take them all at once or can it be divided?
- How long to wait to eat or take medication after taking doses of NK?
- How long does one take NK for?
- Do you need to change your diet completely like give up eggs. I mean eggs with yolk.
I can't speak to the issue of "the myth of high cholesterol", but if you want to lower your cholesterol, the study I linked to in the first article suggests that nattokinase can help in that endeavor.
Your cholesterol levels seem elevated based on what is currently considered normal levels. For total cholesterol (309), below 200 mg/dl is considered acceptable. For LDL(203), below 200 is considered acceptable. For HDL (56) above 40 mg/dl is considered acceptable. For triglycerides(249), below 150 mg/dl is considered acceptable or normal. For VLDL, 2 to 30 mg/dl is considered the normal range.
CABG helps restore blood flow for the heart, but it is not a cure for atherosclerosis, so you still have to deal with the atherosclerosis that clogs the arteries in the first place.
I do not believe cholesterol levels are the most accurate indicator for atherosclerosis, but it is a lot less expensive of a test than to actually test for atherosclerosis and many insurance companies may not be willing to pay for actual atherosclerosis testing.
Imo, the fact that you needed a CABG suggests that you have established atherosclerosis.
For myself personally, because I don't want to use statins to control cholesterol levels, I am using nattokinase with vitamin K2M7 and grape seed proanthocyanidin extract(GSPE) successfully for that purpose. It isn't the only way to lower cholesterol, but it is what I chose to use and I believe that these supplements offer other potential health benefits. Statins are thought to "slow atherosclerosis progression", but I believe the three supplements I use alter the trend direction of atherosclerosis from upward to downward as illustrated by this study chart where GSPE was used in people with atherosclerosis :
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4554789/
Keep in mind that this chart is for GSPE all by itself, not including K2M7 or nattokinase.
Art
Art's Lab Results Questions
Art's Lab Results Questions
I'm glad you enjoyed the article!
You may have missed this link to a Cleveland clinic article discussing VLDL (very low density lipoprotein) in the article, but it is pretty straightforward in showing that you want to keep this bad cholesterol form as low as possible because it is a definite contributor to atherosclerosis:
http://https//my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/24540-vldl-cholesterol
Low density lipoprotein (LDL) is often the focus when referring to bad cholesterol, but VLDL is also important!
Non HDL cholesterol encompasses all of the bad cholesterol, so once again, going lower in the reference range is generally better for our health. This is the reference range for non hdl cholesterol:
A relevant article quote :
' An optimal level of non- HDL cholesterol is less than 130 milligrams per deciliter (mg/dL), or 3.37 millimoles per liter (mmol/L). Higher numbers mean a higher risk of heart disease. '
Art
Art's Lab Results Questions
★★★★★
Thanks!
Keep in mind that the nattokinase was quite effective by itself in the study. Yes, the K2M7 at 190 mcg/day was additive, but the solo results of nattokinase were still impressive.
If you are chelating heavy metals and can't make your regular chelation appointments, you might look into melatonin as a protectant to help reduce the heavy metal damage in between chelation treatments. Melatonin also helps prevent atherosclerosis via its potent antioxidative qualities as well as its vascular anti inflammatory qualities. This of course would be based on whether you tolerate higher dose melatonin or not.
Art
Where to Buy
Please come back and let us know how you do on high dose nattokinase! Keep in mind that the original study showed that vitamin K2M7 had synergy with the nattokinase and my experience suggests that the grape seed proanthocyanidin extract (GSPE) does too. I take all three and found it very effective for the purpose.
Art
Where to Buy
★★★★★
So glad I got the notice of this article today. I ordered the best nattokinase I could find ~ organic and high FU count for my thick blood and clots (of course, not wanting to take blood thinners as they give me a headache).
So yesterday, I found out I have very high cholesterol and triglycerides from my doctor and she wanted to put me on statins. (which I wasn't comfortable with).
Your report is exactly what I needed. I just received my Nattokinase.
If you're looking for organic and high potency FU nattokinase, I ordered 500 grams of Organic (made with organic soybeans from Brazil) 20,000 FU/gram powder from VitaMondo (it takes about a month to get it) at apx. $73. (way less expensive than buying that much premade, low potency capsules)
I am going to make my own capsules, they should be enteric coated (so they dissolve in the small intestine to get absorbed, not the stomach (acid) where they would just act like a normal enzyme).
I figured out to get 10,800 FU per day (1 cap 2x day/morning & evening) you would put 270 mg in each capsule (.27 grams each).
I look forward to taking for 6 mos and seeing my test results for differences.
P.S. - I am sharing the order with a couple friends one with blood clots and severe atherosclerosis, because this amount will last a good long time (taking just over 1/2 grams per day)
K2 Supplementation
Yes, dose seems to be very important in the effective use of nattokinase. In the original study it was shown that while 10, 800 FU/day of nattokinase was effective, 3600 FU/day was not effective.
In that study it was also shown that vitamin K2 had synergy with nattokinase in terms of lowering cholesterol and triglycerides and ultimately atherosclerosis.
Nattokinase has shown some potential to have blood thinning qualities while vitamin K2 is involved in part of the clotting process. Your doctor would have to advise you on this issue. I am only reporting the study results as well as my results with what I used. I would think your doctor would be willing to be a little flexible with you, given that his/her regimen has not yet been effective for you. You would need your doctor's approval and supervision in order to help insure a safe path forward for you as well as compatibility of all components of whatever you decide to use.
Art
K2 Supplementation
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CoQ10
Thank you for reiterating the importance of CoQ10 for our health, especially at higher dosage levels!
I could definitely have worded that better, because I did not mean to dismiss the potential health benefits of CoQ10/Ubiquinol. They are real and that is why I was and still am taking higher dose ubiquinol. I only meant to point out that if the reason you are taking it is to lower LDL cholesterol and triglycerides, you will likely be disappointed in your results.
Art
CoQ10
Please don't dismiss the importance of coq10 or ubiqionol. My daughter recovered from postpartum cardiomyopathy. She took a minimum of 800 mgs a day, along with other supplements. I know your article is about cholesterol, but people may get the wrong idea about the use of coq10. Thank you for your article! I'm taking all of the ones you suggested.
★★★★★
https://www.earthclinic.com/cures/nattokinase-benefits-high-cholesterol-treatment.html
Thank you, Art!
