High Blood Pressure
Natural Remedies

High Blood Pressure Relief: Natural Remedies and Causes

The comments below reflect the personal experiences and opinions of readers and do not represent medical advice or the views of this website. The information shared has not been evaluated by the FDA and is not intended to diagnose, treat, or prevent any disease or health condition. Always consult a qualified healthcare professional for medical concerns.
Magnesium
Posted by Arpad (Ohio) on 10/29/2019
★★★★★

Editor's Choice

I have a cardia arrhythmia which resulted in a stroke. My blood pressure was also on the high side (150/160 over 80/90). None of the doctors that I'd seen ever mentioned the importance of magnesium in blood pressure control.

All I knew of magnesium at the time is that it caused loose stools and using it could cause other mineral deficiency as a result. Yet I read that it's vital for hundreds of things in the body, including normal heart rhythm and blood pressure.

I started using the cheapest form of magnesium supplement (oxide), in tablet form, 500 milligram. Swallowing it with water caused as expected, loose stools. I found that if I crushed the tablet with my teeth, let it mix with my saliva, rubbed it against the roof of my mouth to break it down further without swallowing it until it was a slurry, the magnesium would be absorbed directly into the bloodstream bypassing the intestinal tract.

I've been able to take (3), 500mg tablets one hour apart without diarrhea. After 1 week of taking one tablet per day in this fashion, my blood pressure dropped to the 120's over 80. My heart beat became more regular, I reduced my digoxin With doctors' OK from 250mcg to 125mcg because it was making me too tired.

Magnesium relaxes the blood vessels, lowering BP and also reduces muscle spasms and cramps. It's referred to by nutritionists as "The Master Mineral". Another way of getting magnesium is through the skin by adding Epsom salt to bathwater. It's also an electrolyte, and may be why Lea's (below post) is coming down. Our soils are depleted of minerals due to over farming. We are all deficient in many things as a result.


Salt
Posted by Don (Michigan) on 09/28/2018
★★★★★

I was having gallbladder and candida issues for years so I spent a couple years eating beans, greens and sardines with no salt added. I was taking 20mg Lisinopril daily and my blood pressure was all over the place. Finally I had enough and bought a 20oz frozen cheese pizza and ate the whole thing. It had 2,400mg of sodium. Before I ate it my bp was 161/89. 40 minutes after eating the pizza my bp was 117/ 61. A couple days later bp was 156/90. I ate a 8oz bag of salty kettle potato chips and about 30 minutes later bp was 119/64.

I stopped taking bp medicine which leaves me taking no prescription meds at all. I eat absolutely no processed package artificial foods whatsoever except for canned salmon. I make about 10qts of blended veg soup with 4 tablespoons pink salt and leave in refrigerator to sip on till it's gone in about a week then I make more. Favorite soup is lentils, cabbage, celery, onions, tomatoes, an apple, hot pepper, bell peppers, rutabaga, and what ever vegetables in season. Sometimes I throw in a handful of cashews or blueberries whatever I feel like. By the way, I stopped using herbs and spices in cooking because I think they are very potent medicines that I save for when needed. To me daily consumption of herbs and spices throws my healthy balance off. Reading shows that the healthiest populations season foods with salt only.

I usually start my work day with a mug of water and two mugs of hot soup. Today being a weekend I started it the same and then made a salmon, celery and onion salad to munch on the rest of the day. AND, very unusual, I felt like eating some salty organic round white corn chips and throughout the day I ate the whole 13oz bag and this evening my bp is 116/58.

The point in writing this long winded post is that everyone tells you salt is the enemy and for some it may be. But in my humble opinion salt is the enemy only when combined with the giant of all enemies commercial packaged processed artificial food loaded with sugar, sugar and more sugar.

Even if you live in a city, you can shop in the produce section and rinse every thing in cold water. You don't have to make a lot at once, cook it daily. PLAN AHEAD.

If I need to munch something sweet – banana, avocado, apple, berries, black cherries, etc, etc, etc.

And here is the kicker, I NOW SPEND HALF WHAT I USED TO on food per month.

Kefir
Posted by Art (California ) on 01/07/2017 2978 posts

In reply to P. Raghavan (Virudhunagar, Tn, India),

My main concern was the extremely elevated blood pressure level. I am a firm believer in good gut bacteria having healing qualities of many types, but anyone with pressure readings that high should be under a doctors supervision until the blood pressure is lowered and stable in something closer to the normal range before attempting to see what kefir can do for them. This is a case of safety first because blood pressure that high can be fatal if not brought under control fairly quickly.

I think you already know that I am a follower of your posts regarding kefir and probiotics and I appreciate your posts because you come back regularly to update and follow up on your previous posts plus you also add information about the research that has lead to your conclusions. Thank you for your posts and I hope you keep them up!

Art


Alternative Treatment for HBP
Posted by Gertal (Al) on 03/31/2014
★★★★★

Start off by getting a blood pressure monitor at the drugstore. Take it yourself and keep a record of what it is. Then, practice 'calming' techniques--deep breathing, etc, and learn how to get it down that way. Make a list of everything you take and then check each item to see if it can raise your bp. the dgl licorice for my ulcer would raise mine, so even 'natural' things we take can make it go up. Besides that, do some research on this site and see what else you can do. If your bp is normal when you take it yourself, then you can show this to the dr and demonstrate that he causes it to go up.


Coenzyme Q10
Posted by Andrea C (Wales) on 10/01/2013
★★★★★

Editor's Choice

RE: High Blood pressure, Coenzeyme 10 (Qc10) will lower your blood pressure better than any Drug in the World that a DR can give you. 150milligram's 3 times a day, it can be taken along side your BP Med's if you've been scared and bullied enough by DR's to take it, it will not interfere with any Med's. I have helped Gang's of people with this, and I was one of them. My BP went fatal, last week I got it checked and I've got the BP of a super fit 18 year old and I'm 54yrs young. I never took any Med's as they cause more damage. It has to be Ubiquinol (there are many forms of Cq10), and a good Omega 3 oil is excellent too. Cq10 is made naturally by the body, but lower's with age and other factors. Statins are also evil, I met load's of people in Hospital that had heart attack's caused by Statins, an everyone I know has got heart damage from these Drug's. Its a lie about High Cholesterol, we need it. Our Brain's are made of it, Beet root juice lower's it brilliantly if you really believe it should be lowered, but it's got NOTHING to do with Heart Attack's. It's just another scare mongering tactic to sell more Drug's and make even more money for the evil one's. Do you think they take their own poison? No, they go to Health spas and eat Organic food, and natural remedies. And Detox in luxury using the money they scared everyone in to parting with for drug's. Love Andrea C xxxx

Taurine
Posted by Karen (Atlanta, Georgia) on 03/29/2013
★★★★★

My blood pressure was high. 198 over something. I couldn't take any prescriptions for it other than a diuretic (prescription) because my muscles in my thighs kept hurting. That can be a dangerous side effect especially since your heart is a muscle.

1,000mg of Taurine and my blood pressure went down to 150 over something. Then 130 over something. With a prescription diuretic and 1000mgs of Taurine my blood pressure is in the teens.

Hydrogen Peroxide
Posted by Airzone (Hernando, Mississippi, Usa) on 10/08/2012
★★★★★

Food grade Hydrogen perxoide- this sounds off the charts but I had to test a different way to take peroxide. I went to the health food store bought some empty capsules seperated and filled with 8 drops Hydrogen peroxide replaced cap and started to take the pills went from 8 drops to 15 on a empty stomach, I was prehypertensive in 150 over 85. I am 51 years old after taking for week my Blood pressure dropped been taking for several weeks now my Blood pressure is 117 to 120 over 74 this is no lie I also have arthritis no more pain this totally works for me at first I was nervous thought it would upset my stomach no problems. But it is wise to use probiotics as well :-) I appears to work on psoriasis to!

Multiple Remedies
Posted by Donnie (Paulden, Arizona) on 02/10/2012
★★★★★

As a truck driver, I have to keep my blood pressure below 140/90. to get my 2 year med card. My last physical I was way high 180/110. Had to take some time off. Went to doctor got on blood prs pills 20 mg of lisinopril plus a water pill hctz 12.5mg. This worked, and got it down to about 136/86. but he would only give me the pills for three months. The story is longer, but I'll end it here.

Have got it down to 122/76 using apple cid vin. and aloe vera drink. Hibiscus tea. Garlic. Cayenne pepper. My son is in the med field and when he took my blood prs, he wanted to take it again becuse he could not believe I got it down that low without the meds. I drink the aloe vera out of the one gallon jug I got from walgreens. The apple cid vin, I pour into some apple drink. Neither of these tastes good, but if you can get it down its worked for me. Good luck. I will be donating to this site, beats paying the rip off doctor.


Iodine
Posted by Trev Adams (Busselton, West Australia) on 09/18/2011
★★★★★

I started taking Lugol's Solution (10% Potassium Iodine and 5% Iodine) and within 4 weeks my blood sugar has gone from 7.1 to 4.9. I am not doing or taking anything else so it has to be the Lugol's. My blood pressure has also come down to the extent that I am seriously considering coming off my BP medication. It was routinely 145-155 over 90-96 and now is down to routinely 115-120 over 68-72.


Avoid Grains
Posted by Sheila (Ball Ground, Georgia) on 11/04/2012

Hello, I study nutrition & holistic healing. You should read the book, "Wheat Belly". I got mine on Audible.com for audio book or u can get on Amazon.com It is a proven fact that gluten (anything made w/wheat among some other grains contain gluten) causes the majority of the diseases in the world. Diabetes, HBP, Cholesterol-high, heart disease, obesity, psychosis, depression, anxiety... Unbelievable book that this cardiologist wrote after devoting many yrs of his life testing patients. After 20 days patients conditions basically clear up. He says that 90% of all gluten intolerant people don't even know they are. Many people don't register when they test. Yet, take them off the gluten & they clear up! :-) You gotta check into that. I have lost 40 lbs & not so bloated any more & my diabetes & HBP is now cleared up too. But, I have also adopted ACV mixed w/garlic & honey http://www.rawfoodinfo.com/articles/art_cidervingarlichoney.html & it went down 30 points from my last visit & cinnamon is my big wonder cure for diabetes, look that one up too! Only take less than 1 tsp daily in warm water or in your tea or coffee split up in 3-4 cups (total 1 tsp--no more-important). http://diabetes.webmd.com/cinnamon-and-benefits-for-diabetes

I am loving life w/healthy eating holistic healing. I just wish more people knew that just healthy foods, spices, herbs & vitamins & supplements are the key to good health & curing ailments & disease too! Btw, check out this movie! Amazing, .. Eye opener movies: "FAT, SICK, & NEARLY DEAD" (he cures all his diseases w/juicing in only 30 days literally/documentary) and also watch: "FOOD MATTERS" Harvard doctor tells how we can heal w/food over medicines. Medicine only bandages it food cures you. :-)

I know, I know, .. My husband says I can't save the world, but, I dang sure will try! :-) Good luck everyone & I hope this helps all who reads this. Sheila


Aloe Vera, Hibiscus Tea, Cayenne Pepper
Posted by I Am Aurelia (Morelia, Mexico) on 07/15/2011
★★★★★

hi, I blend the whole aloe leaf, whole lemon, peel and all, add about a cup of water more or less. When strained you should have a glassful of liquid. First few days I had cramps and loose stools as the outer part of the aloe leaf is a laxitive. I believe it is part of the cleansing process. Drink plenty of water to prevent dehydration. The hibiscus is 100% hibiscus. You should be able to find it at a natural foods store or a store with ethnic products. I saw results in the second week, numbers started to go down.


Aloe Vera, Hibiscus Tea, Cayenne Pepper
Posted by Kristine (North Canton) on 02/01/2022

Gloria, what a great response. I totally agree with it. People are so worried about natural remedies and overdosing -- not possible, but won't have a second thought about over-drinking, taking prescription drugs, eating too many fried foods, etc.


Blood Pressure Readings
Posted by Joyce (Joelton, Tn) on 02/27/2010 488 posts

Hello Greg from Petoskey, Michigan,

I have read that the best way to keep a check on your blood pressure is to take it in the same arm, the same position, at the same time each day. Now that we have that out of the way, let's also add that our heart rates and our blood pressures vary with our activity and also with our emotions. When I looked at your readings, I felt envious. However I did wonder if that 140/80 occurred right after getting home through all that snow you guys have been getting lately. If it was, in the future have a seat and a hot cup of tea, kick your heels up and relax for at least 1/2 hour before checking your blood pressure. It has only been a few years that 140/80 was considered high. Before that it was a normal reading.

First off to explain 140/80: the 140 is called the systole and the 80 is diastole. The systole is pressure the blood exerts against the arteries during the pumping action of the heart, the diastole is the pressure exerted at rest between heart beats, so if one or the other has to be a little high, better the one with the pumping activity than the one at rest between beats. For dietary reference, 4 stems of celery per day is said to lower the blood pressure. Also read recently that eating 2 slices of beets (fresh, canned, or cooked) a day does the same. You might consider taking a B6 and magnesium supplement to lower the blood pressure should it go higher. There is a nonprescription tablet combining the 2 on the market. It is called Beelith tablets. If you go that route, 1 tablet morning and evening should do the trick, but if you are sure that your diet includes adequate amounts of these, you shouldn't need them, but there is a lot of controversy these days on whether our depleted soil is furnishing our plants with the nutrients they need. My own blood pressure has gone up lately despite being controlled for years with magnesium. After thinking it over, it probably is connected to emotions connected to Obama and his health care reform bill (and his deafness to the 63% who don't want anything to do with it).

Lots of people would love to have your readings and you must be very active (not just considered very active) to have a 46 resting pulse rate.


Blood Pressure Readings
Posted by Donald (Pa) on 07/29/2016

Your numbers are not high, despite what you're being told. The 120 number is an artificially low number set by big pharma to induce people into taking medication. The old standard used to be 140, before that it was 160.


Hydrogen Peroxide
Posted by Jo Ana (Norwich, CT) on 03/25/2007
★★★★★

For many years, I would wake up at night, with a rapidly beating heart, gasping for breathe, etc. I have tried many remedies and again, over the years had developed high blood pressure perhaps, as a result of poor respiration at night, kidney and gallstones. Minor surgery for an impacted kidney stone and then major infirmities probably as a result of the surgery, antibiotics, HBP meds, and infections. Found your site, and I have started using food-grade H2O2 again orally and through inhalation, also extra virgin coconut oil, iodine, and cider vinegar. Within 2 weeks, HBP gone, no liver/GB pain or distress, and a major increase in energy and a returning sense of well-being. Sleeping through the night like a baby. Please be aware that I tried EDT suppositories and ionic footbaths for relief from toxicity, with only an increase in distress. I credit my body's healing to the H202, cider vinegar, coconut oil, iodine, and coffee enemas to eliminate the toxins. I truly appreciate this website and my return to health, after all these years of less than optimal functioning. I had had a normal body temp of 96.8 for years and after initiated Lugol's iodine footpainting, within this time period as well, my normal body temp is up to 98 from below 97, which is also a really good thing. Thanks to all of you for all your suggestions, and I wish this level of body optimization for all of you who suffer needlessly. God Bless You All.


Blood Pressure and Age
Posted by RB (Somewhere in Europe) on 11/10/2023 100 posts
★★★★★

"The blood pressure increases every two years about one degree. The normal blood at thirty is approximately 125, and at sixty, it is 140."

This is a quote is from page 448 of the book titled Back to Eden, copyright 1937 by Jethro Kloss. He was herbalist, author, inventor, teacher, food scientist and lecturer. And I keep finding his book is well-researched and accurate in every little detail.

Fast forward 88 years, and when the blood pressure is between 120 to 129, it is called "prehypertension" and "elevated blood pressure" by the American College of Cardiology and the American Heart Association. Why?

White Cumin Seeds, Fennel Seeds, Green Cardamom
Posted by Usman N. (Columbia, MD) on 09/18/2022
★★★★★

White Cumin seeds, Fennel Seeds, Green Cardamom for Hypertension (Blood Pressure)

Found this protocol highly effective. My age 65 yrs. had Cardiac arrest in April 2022. Given medications to regulate BP. As a result, my uric acid jumped, which I have normalized by taking daily 4 tablespoon of ACV in a glass of water 3 times a day.

For normalizing BP, I take 1 tsp of white cumin seeds, 1 tsp of fennel seeds and 2 whole cardamoms. Put them in 1 cup of water. Bring the water to boil. When about 1/2 cup of water is left. Drink it as tea with breakfast. You can drink it warm or cold and interestingly it is very tasty. My regular BP use to be 125-130/80-85 using 50mg of Metoprolol. In a matter of few days/1 week, BP dropped to 90's/60's. Dr reduced the dosage to 25 mg.

After reducing medication, BP is around 100/65. It is important that you have a good BP monitor machine to regularly checking your BP. I will experiment by taking this tea twice a day or eliminating my medicine and see the effect on my BP. As I said earlier, this protocol is highly effective. I hope this info helps.

Salt
Posted by KT (Usa) on 09/30/2018

Joanna,

They may not have added monosodium glutamate but the flowing agent in the salt could be a culprit. In production of any product, cooking, heating and reheated creates a manufactured glutamic acic that's worse. It is a nerve stimulant...PERIOD.

Those of us who recognize our sensitivity know "this is my MSG reaction". Sounds, to me, like you had a reaction. Different people can tolerate different amounts and combinations of various foods can make a difference. There is no "one-size-fits-all".

Magnesium and vit. C offer some protection against the toxic effects of "MSG" See truthinlabeling.org. It has taken me, piecemeal, over two decades to learn how I can eat what. For example, I am a red meat lover but I cannot eat reheated beef and I have to limit my ingestion to two oz. at a time or my fingers become sore and sometimes split.

I can take magnesium but the magnesium citrate caused me frightening heart palpitations and I was diagnosed with PVC. Citrate is processed from corn. There is another post here about how I discovered this. Corn has been genetically modified and I believe it was in 1998 that corn contained the patented gene that Monsanto developed for their Roundup ready soybeans. Infiltration cannot be avoided just due to wind and bird droppings.

The critters we eat and get milk or eggs from are being fed GMO grasses and grains. When anything is cooked MSG is created and because our food has been engineered to last longer, "Food, Inc." assimilation is difficult.

This is truly all very complicated but I wanted to share just because labels declare "NOMSG" or "NON-GMO" they cannot be trusted and I trust the people more who went to the food industry to have them check their own products for the information.

KT


Lemon Juice in Hot Water
Posted by Jools (Uk) on 02/23/2018
★★★★★

I read that fresh lemon juice in hot water lowers bp. I tried every morning and it worked for me! I have halved my meds!


Apple Cider Vinegar and Baking Soda
Posted by Bill (Philippines) on 12/17/2017

Hi Baldev...There are really two common reasons for high blood pressure.

The first reason is due to heart arteries that become constricted which is caused by a continual circular build up of of Lipo-A(a derivative of cholesterol) in the arteries near the heart. And as Dr Linus Pauling has mentioned in his book on Vitamin C -- he describes in his research how a common goat can self-manufacture 12gms of Vit C every day and up to 18gms of Vit C under stressed conditions. A goat is much smaller than a human adult. Humans are also missing the one digestive enzyme that the goat has for converting glucose to Vit C but the implications from the goat analogy are that humans obviously require much larger amounts of Vit C than are advised by the FDA. This is especially true as we get older.

Dr Pauling, in his protocol for arteriosclerosis(which also causes high blood pressure), describes just taking from 6 gms of both Vitamin C and Lysine(an amino acid) 6 times a day at one gram per dose(for Lysine and Vit C) outside mealtimes. Take both these nutrients dissolve in a glass of water. The protocol is also much better if you convert the Ascorbic Acid form(Vit C) to the Ascorbate Vit C form by adding Sodium Bicarbonate to the solution until the fizzing stops. Then just add the Lysine and take it like that. A very simple protocol. Take this protocol every day at one hour intervals between each dose.

The second reason you may have high blood is because you may have thick or "sticky" blood. This stickiness is caused by the blood clumping together which causes more stress for the heart(high blood pressure). You should take about 100 mgs niacin at mealtimes 3 times a day. And if you can do it it, you should raise the dose to 500 mgs for better or quicker effect -- but please be aware of the "niacin flush". Do not use niacinamide for this protocol because there is no niacin flush with this version. Niacin and the niacin flush are what is needed because only niacin will safely unclump the blood and also helps to increase NO to the arteries, allowing them to become more elastic and flexible and niacin also helps to open up the capillaries(causing the niacin flush effect) thereby naturally reducing your blood pressure as well as reducing stress on the heart by lowering the BP.

I would also advise taking both Milk Thistle(capsules: 300mgs 3 times a day with meals) and Chanca piedra or Bhumyamaliki(Phyllanthus niruri). This herb is also beneficial for hypertension and has many other wonderful protective effects on the body. CP dose is also 300mgs 3 times a day with meals. These two herbs are highly protective for both the liver and kidneys and I'm advising them in case there are any further problems with these organs, which could also perhaps contribute to your hypertension problem.

And, as I always advise, whenever you buy herbs -- only buy quality herbs that are organic or wildcrafted(with no added chemicals). The older ways of formulating herbs as a powder, tea, tincture or decoction are best and are the most trustworthy, giving the most reliable results.


Chaga Mushroom
Posted by Edna (Chicago) on 06/18/2016
★★★★★

Doc put me on lisinopril ("You don't want a stake, do you?" asked he). after about a month of minor improvement I took myself off because don't believe in all the addicting meds US docs prescribe that don't get at underlying cause.

Instead: deep breathing (10 slow breaths ) brought my blood pressure down 30 points!

Last two days I've been drinking a concentrated Chaga drink from Chaga off a friend's dying birches. BP 120/71 this am and this pm an almost too low of 82/41. But I feel fine. I am a 77 year old female. I'll take a break from Chaga for a few days and see and then if BP climbs back up, will have some more in mornings.


Magnesium
Posted by Nancy (Dallas, Texas) on 12/15/2014
★★★★★

I have recently found myself with high blood pressure. In experimenting twice now, magnesium has done a bang up job in lowering my blood pressure.

One hour ago, it was 158/96. I immediately drank water with one heaping tsp of Calm magnesium powder. Now, it's 135/83. That's a huge decrease!

I have order Magnesium Glycinate, because if I keep using Calm (which is Magnesium Citrate), it will soften my stools too much.

Apple Cider Vinegar and Baking Soda
Posted by HisJewel (Usa) on 12/05/2017

Hi Pam,

Here are some supplements besides my old and tried ones (potassium and magnesium, and coq10). The following have not only helped to regulate my blood pressure, but has also helped my leg to feel less numb.

I ran to the emergency room a couple of years ago for numbness in both legs upon awaking, and they did nothing, had no advice, took no tests, simply asked what my doctor had to say about it and had the nerve to sent me a bill.

Here are the supplements that made a difference in my blood pressure and otherwise, I have only been taking them about four months: Nattokinase 2000 fu and K2 Life Extensions Super K advanced complex. Also when the stress get out of hand, I hum a prayer. Soft music will probably do as well.

HisJewel

Praying4u


Drop of Olive Oil in the Navel
Posted by Faeqa ( Amman, Jordan) on 04/28/2014 73 posts
★★★★★

Hi: I want to share this experience with others who have high blood pressure:

Before two weeks I liked to try olive oil in the navel for constipation, I put one drop a day in the navel hole, after 3 days I suffered from dizziness, when I checked my blood pressure I found it 70/50 (my original blood pressure is 90-110) for that I stooped using it.

I told my sister about that, her blood pressure between 120- 140. After three days of using it her blood pressure dropped to 95/50. I hope this will be benefit for high blood pressure patients, and I hope that they will post there experience.

Hydrogen Peroxide
Posted by Joan (Richardson, TX) on 07/16/2006
★★★★★

I use pharmacy strength 3% hydrogen peroxide -- drops in glass of water twice a day (about 7 drops thus far). My moderately elevated blood pressure reduced to normal, according to my doctor's records, without use of drugs. How long should I continue to pursue this treatment? Should I continue longer or cycle on and off in some way?

Potassium
Posted by Art (California) on 09/08/2023 2978 posts

Vera,

The reason given for limiting potassium to 99 mg is discussed here :

https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Potassium-HealthProfessional/#:~:text=The use of potassium salts, be labeled with a warning.

Here is a relevant quote from the link :

' The use of potassium salts in certain medications has been associated with small-bowel lesions, causing obstruction, hemorrhage, and perforation [20, 74]. For this reason, the FDA requires some oral drugs providing more than 99 mg of potassium to be labeled with a warning. '

Regarding taking more than one 99 mg capsule of potassium at a time being safe or not, consider that one medium sized banana has 422 mg of potassium or more than 4 capsules of potassium. I don't think anyone has had a health issue from eating one medium sized banana unless it happened to be attached to a banana split and you ate it everyday as a supplement!

If you really want go for food with potassium, one medium baked potato has 940 mg of potassium and people eat those all the time.

Art



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